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Mystlord
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« on: November 18, 2008, 07:40:50 am »

Guide to Cheese
By Mystlord

Of all the nastiest most hateful strategies in Starcraft, the most annoying ones are…  Basically any form of cheese.  It’s nasty, gooey, disgusting, evil, and annoying.  However, a lot of people have some misconceptions about cheese.  First of all, here’s my definition of cheese: A strategy that follows these conditions:
-Takes the initiative
-Is hard to scout
-Designed to win the game with the least amount of effort.
-Leaves the cheeser at a severe disadvantage if the strategy fails to do sufficient damage.

The reason I’m posting this guide is because on ICCup, I can guarantee that within the first 5-10 games of your D rank life, you will encounter at least one if not more cheese build.  Although I will admit that there seems to be a little more honor for some people on ICCup nowadays, but that may just be that I’m avoiding the majority of cheesers.

So, moving on to the cheese:

Protoss

Let’s begin with the most obvious:
 
2 Gate Proxy
It will work against pretty much every single race, provided that your opponent does not scout it.  And it will be harder for some builds to protect against this build than others.  It’s a popular choice on the map Chupung-Reyung (Spelling on that one please!), because that map has a lot of areas where hidden gateways can be set up.

The build order is to send out your 5th probe out to somewhere on the map (generally the middle), and set up a pylon.  Then place down your two gateways and start pumping zealots like no tomorrow.

Basically, you need to scout this or else you will lose.  Now, for what each race can do against this:

Terran
If you walled off and your wall is zealot proof (it should be), then great, you’re going to be fine provided that your marines spawn on the right side of the wall and can get in.  If you didn’t wall off, then you have a couple of options depending on if zealots are in your base or not and if you have a ramp.

If the zealots are not in your base and you have a ramp, then what you can do is take 2 SCVs off the line, build one marine, and block the ramp with those 2 SCVs., then, float the barracks over the SCVs, tell the SCVs to hold position with the marine, and the zealots can’t get up your ramp, nor can they manually target the SCVs under the barracks.  Then get your factory up and proceed as usual.
 
If the zealots are in your base, you’re going to have to pull off some micro.  You won’t be able to stop the zealots from streaming into your base, so I hope you built your barracks near your command center, because you need to get a bunker up.  Get the bunker up, and build your factory on a spot that’s protected by your bunker.  Then do some vulture micro and kill the zealots in your base, but don’t forget to get a machine shop up and running ASAP.  You want tanks and mines from this point on in case the Protoss tries to go dragoons.  Play standard from this point on.  You can try to 2 fac the toss and kill the proxy on the way, or you can expand with mines.  Either way, you should come out economically ahead.

If the Protoss survives to the mid game, then he will undoubtedly try to do some other sort of cheese.  His economy will not reach the same level as yours, and he won’t be able to push in at all.  Therefore, he will have to go reavers or DTs.  Set down missile turrets all over your base and you’ll be fine and cruise to a win.

Zerg
If you went 12 hatch, it’s over.  Your pool won’t be up fast enough.  The best you can do is canceling the hatch, setting up a pool ASAP, setting up creep colonies in your base, and pray.  Of course, you want to set up your hatchery again inside your base.  This is all assuming that you scouted his proxy 2 gates or you scouted his base.  If you had no idea that this was coming, you’re just dead if you did a 12 hatch.

If you went 9 pool, overpool, or 12 pool, you will be much better off.  I will say that it will be more likely that you went overpool than the other two choices.  Regardless, use your initial 6 lings to ward off his zealots while setting up a creep colony.  Get the colony up, and you can send your 6 lings to his base to harass his probes a little as he will not be able to kill anything provided your sunken colony is in a good position.  Pump more lings, and fend off his zealots.  At this point, his economy should be shot and you should have to problem winning.

The Toss follow up to this cheese will be a fast stargate and fast DTs.  Anything else is implausible and will set him too far behind.  Set up a hydra den and make sure you keep overlords and hydras everywhere.  Additionally, keep your hydras clustered around your ramp as opposed to a frontal position because you don’t want his DT sneaking into your main.

Protoss
If you went 1 gate goon, I feel for you.  You will most likely die.  Set up a 2nd gateway ASAP and start pumping zealots when you can.  You can try to pull probes off of gas and use superior zealot micro beat him.  Or, you can try to pump goons instead and hopefully your goon micro is good enough that you can eliminate his zealots.  You will need to pull probes for this.

If you went 2 gate zealots, just block your ramp and you’ll be fine.

If the Protoss lives, he’ll try DTs or reavers.  Get an observatory/forge and pump goons to eliminate the threat of either.

Damage That Needs to be Inflicted
If one goes 2 gate proxy, the amount of damage inflicted to each race is different.

Terran - Must kill enough SCVs to equalize the economy and delay factory tech sufficiently such that dragoons will kill the Terran.

Protoss - Must destroy enough probes such that both economies will be equalized if the cheesers two gateways and pylons are destroyed.  Must delay his core tech while setting up yours.

Zerg - Must destroy the 2nd hatchery, or in the case of a pool first build, must kill at least 3-5 drones or must delay his tech such that you can race ahead in tech, specifically to fast sair/dt.

Cannon Rush
It’s an old school strategy that’s a little hard to miss.  Just keep up your scouting and you should find cannons somewhere.  It will be more likely in a PvZ than any other match up, but it can happen in other match ups.  Basically, use your scouting probe to build protected cannons.

Zerg
If you went 9 pool and lost to a cannon rush, I question both yours and your opponent’s ability to think rationally.  If you went 12 hatch, then I would recommend that you send your overlord to the location of your 12 hatch if you are a beginner.  The building hatchery does not have enough sight range to see cannons.  I will say that 4 drones can take down a cannon before it warps in.  If the Protoss was smart and built the cannon behind the mineral line and blocked it off with a pylon, then bring 4-5 drones and start attacking the pylon.  However, do not let him set up a pylon in place of the one he just lost.  That would suck for you.  An alternative method if you aren’t freaking out is to take 4-5 drones, and push them over the minerals to attack the probe/cannon.
On maps like Wuthering Heights and Tau Cross where the choke can be blocked off with a pylon, bring 4-5 drones to attack the pylon.  Make sure that you can take it down before the cannon or the 2nd pylon warps in.  On Othello, be sure to check the ridge with your overlord as well to make sure he didn’t set up cannons on that location.

If the cannon rush fails, you will be ahead economically.  Double expand (assuming he doesn’t have gateways in his base) and macro away.

Terran
It seriously shouldn’t work on a Terran.  If you 14 CCed or something, you should see the cannon and destroy it.  Same method as the Zerg uses.  If the toss sets it up behind your mineral line, you can either lift off to your natural or kill the pylon.  Your choice.

Protoss
The only way it will work on a Protoss is if you set it up behind the mineral line.  I’m pretty sure your zealot will be out before the cannon can warp in.  Just kill the pylon and kill the cannon.

Damage That Needs to be Inflicted
Zerg - Must destroy or deny mining at the expansion.  If you pull it off on a pool first build, you're a genius.

Terran - If it works, you're a genius, but must force the Terran to lift off to his natural, while killing... 75% of his SCVs or some ridiculous number.

Protoss - Must deny mining at his main, or destroy the nexus at his main.

9/10 Gateway Rush
This might as well be a 2 gate proxy, but if your opponent is Zerg and did a 12 hatch, then this will just destroy the Zerg.  Seriously, just proxy.

DT Rush
So I did get a little lazy when I first posted this section, and Revolutionary and Beater pointed out… Numerous flaws in this section.  So thanks to them, this section got revised.

This build is viable only against a Terran or a Protoss.  I have no idea how it will work on a Zerg considering that they have free detection and that enough zerglings/hydras will take down DTs fast enough.  Basically it’s a rapid tech rush to DTs forgoing everything in between and getting as few goons as possible.

Terran
If you scout it, you’re fine.  If you don’t, you’re screwed.  If you’re super safe and build turrets 5 minutes before the DTs come, you’ll also be fine.  It’s basically you win or you lose with this cheese.

What you have to do to counter this cheese if you see it is basically cover everywhere with detection.  Turrets by your CCs, by your factories, depots, etc.  Don’t go overboard with turrets, but be sure that you can defend against a DT drop inside your base as well, so keep vultures/tanks around the missile turrets while you get an academy up.  Set up mines around key locations as well.  However, don’t place them near the mineral line unless you want mines dragged into your SCV line.  Around your factories is okay though.  Once you ward his DTs off, you will be ahead economically and should be able to roll over him.  Just be sure to keep some vultures at home in case he tries to DT drop you again.

Protoss
Not considered to be a cheese build PvP, but included anyway:

DTs against Protoss will really depend on your build.  If you scouted your opponent somehow (your opponent really shouldn’t allow this), then place a forge.  However, if you didn’t, which is likely, you need to have gone for a fast obs build before reavers or anything else or else you will lose.  If you go 4 gate goons, reavers before obs, DTs your self (but slower), you will lose.  There’s really nothing you can do about it.

Damage That Needs to be Inflicted
Terran - Must kill enough SCVs or deny mining at all expansions.  Alternatively, kill enough of his tanks such that you can push in.  At least 25% of all SCVs must be destroyed.

Zerg section coming next...

Feedback and comments are of course appreciated!  As well as anything I might have missed.

Change Log
November 17, 2008 - Guide posted.
November 18, 2008 - DT rush section amended.
November 19, 2008 - DT rush section amended AGAIN, Definition of cheese changed, Added a Damage Needed to be Inflicted part to each section of the guide.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2008, 07:36:57 am by Mystlord » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: November 18, 2008, 05:38:17 pm »

Good Guide, Very informative on responses for those nasty 2 gates. =D
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« Reply #2 on: November 18, 2008, 11:20:27 pm »

If a Terran has scouted DT rush coming, Protoss will probably change and go for a DT drop (which is THE lamest P opening ever, especially on Andromeda where it's just impossible to defend it).  What you want to do against it is build 3 turrets tightly around your CC, and one covering your factories and natural if you have one.  Get vultures after 3 tanks (you probably should anyways DT drop or not).

The most annoying thing is that a DT drop isn't really even cheese, because it delays a push, and lets them get an island, AND observers aren't that late either.

Good guide
« Last Edit: November 18, 2008, 11:20:51 pm by Revolutionary » Logged
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« Reply #3 on: November 19, 2008, 01:02:03 am »

Nice guide. I disagree with your DT rush analysis though.

A DT rush can work very well against a protoss, and is much more win/lose than in PvT. The reasn here is of course that sometimes people will gamble and go 4 gate goons, go reaver before obs, go 2 gate expand or even DTs himself. All of these strats get get absolutely murdered by quick DTs and PvP has always been known as the "lucky matchup" since amateurs will once in a while kill a pro using DTs.

As Terran you should often be able to get by with a very small amount of turrets (considering you scout or sense it) along with mines around said turrets. Get a quick acad and researh vulture speed asap and you'll be able to seriously criple or limit the guy's movement while you take your nat safely and build up facts for a quick timing push.
The assumption I'm making here is that you(as terran) will be going with the standard FD expand. If you do you will have mines before DTs (us your 2nd vulture to mine your ramp and perhaps even place a mine close to the entrance with your first vulture, regardless of what you think he might be doing). In FD terran you push out rather quick, and depending on the kind of defence he puts up you will be able to guess a lot of things about his strategy (ie. Does he fight you with a lot of goons, does he retreat to his ramp, etc) and respond apropriately. Once you see the first DT cancel siege mode (the normal follow up to FD to ward off ranged goons with obs) and begin researching speed instead. You should always place a quick turret at your nat, but if you get unlucky with the timing mine around the places where you want to place turrets and then build turrets there. This means minng close to the minerals, not in them. Also get an acad as fast as possible. Once the immediate Dt threat has been repulsed go harrass him with your speed vults while you build scvs and factories. This will often enable you to delay his natural alot, or maybe even kill it, since he won't have any quick observers to deal with mines.

This is my take on dealing with DT rushes at least
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« Reply #4 on: November 19, 2008, 04:10:18 am »

Also, for 2 gate vs 12 hatch, I actually found it to be quite easy to defend as Zerg. Of course, I wasn't playing against a proxy two gate but all I had to do was pull a few drones off the line to guard my sunken while it morphed while pumping zerglings.
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« Reply #5 on: November 19, 2008, 04:47:41 am »

Yeah well I did get kind of lazy near the end of the document as you can tell because I was getting a bit tired, so I'll fix all offending portions.

Revo: Yeah, a bit more detail on the DT rush section might do us all some good.

Beater: See above, though you do raise a good point.  I've just noticed that many Protoss pro foreigners favor an early obs build as opposed to others.  But I will amend the document with the information you've put forward, Thanks!

neobowman: If you went 12 hatch and your opponent tried to pull a 9/10 gateway, you will 100% lose because you won't be able to get a sunken up before his first two zealots start coming in.  The build you most likely faced was the 10/12 gateway where only one zealot will come initially, then he'll use the scouting probe in conjunction with the first zealot while he brings his second zealot over.  The 10/12 gateway can be fended off by any Zerg build really, and it shouldn't be a threat.
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« Reply #6 on: November 19, 2008, 07:22:17 am »

In regards to 12hatch vs 2gate:

Technically there are 3 different types of 2gate builds Protoss can do.  Proxy 9/10gate, which will kill a 12hatch really easy.

9/10gate in base will also kill a 12hatch.  Well, "probably" kill a 12hatch.  There is the possibility of you microing your ass off, in combination of mis-micro by the Protoss.  It is really hard to not die to 9/10gate if you went 12hatch, since his first zealot will be arriving at your nat before your lings pop.  Shortly after that, its like 6 lings and maybe some drones, vs 1zealot and 2-3 probes for a few seconds till the next 2 zealots arrive, in which case you are at a disadvantage again.

10/12gate is "safe" play from the Protoss, and 12hatch will do well against it.
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« Reply #7 on: November 19, 2008, 03:04:34 pm »

A little thing about DTs in PvP (knowing how to use them quite well myself), is that a Forge is in order when you go that route regardless, or at least it should be. It protects you from the opponents DTs, which is really what you need to defend against, nothing else will really bother you too much since your DTs will be causing him massive issues whether he has obs or not. DTs in PvP aren't really cheese anyway, since they transition very nicely into HTs, which are essential in any matchup.
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« Reply #8 on: November 19, 2008, 08:35:23 pm »

Quote from: KnightOfNi
A little thing about DTs in PvP (knowing how to use them quite well myself), is that a Forge is in order when you go that route regardless, or at least it should be. It protects you from the opponents DTs, which is really what you need to defend against, nothing else will really bother you too much since your DTs will be causing him massive issues whether he has obs or not. DTs in PvP aren't really cheese anyway, since they transition very nicely into HTs, which are essential in any matchup.


True. A 1gate DT build (or 2gate if you want to go that route) are not cheese builds in any way. As a matter of fact, when I open with one of those builds, I don't expect to do any damage with it at all. The point is to get a nexus up ASAP & than tech to HT and storm so I can storm drop and take the lead. If it were a cheese, I would need to win or do A LOT of damage with the HT.
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« Reply #9 on: November 20, 2008, 12:12:44 am »

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« Reply #10 on: November 20, 2008, 07:19:29 am »

Sentenal: 9/10 gateway will 100% kill a 12 hatch unless the Protoss player is absolutely incompetent and doesn't rush or something retarded like that.

KnightofNi & Salv: Well, if you could tell the rest of us when to actually put the forge down that would be nice....  I'll amend the DT rush section AGAIN...  Maybe I should just remove it .
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« Reply #11 on: November 20, 2008, 08:36:37 pm »

Quote from: Mystlord
Sentenal: 9/10 gateway will 100% kill a 12 hatch unless the Protoss player is absolutely incompetent and doesn't rush or something retarded like that.

KnightofNi & Salv: Well, if you could tell the rest of us when to actually put the forge down that would be nice....  I'll amend the DT rush section AGAIN...  Maybe I should just remove it .
haha, you would think so, but I've managed to pull it off a few times .  The only way a 12hatch can beat a 9/10gate, is if the P makes a big micro mistake, and the Z micros their ass off.
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« Reply #12 on: November 21, 2008, 05:40:32 am »

Quote from: Mystlord
Sentenal: 9/10 gateway will 100% kill a 12 hatch unless the Protoss player is absolutely incompetent and doesn't rush or something retarded like that.

KnightofNi & Salv: Well, if you could tell the rest of us when to actually put the forge down that would be nice....  I'll amend the DT rush section AGAIN...  Maybe I should just remove it .

I will GLADLY tell you when you put that forge down; after your templar archives. If you do a 1gate DT build (like I use) there really isn't a faster DT build unless they do some off the wall assimilator first shit (which you should scout and be like wtf; fast assim!). So it's easy to know when you need cannons. All you need to do is think logically like; I am doing the fastest DT build there is (with the exception), so when my DT pops, I better start cannons at my natural, because that should mean if he did fast DT's, his DT just popped as well.

I have a rep of myself doing this build versus Ry- on Python that I'll upload.
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